Peter G. Williams

Rob Hausam

Recording, notes & attendance.

Peter G. Williams

Rob Hausam

Peter G. Williams

Rob Hausam

Recent events:

Upcoming events:

HL7 Connectathon 17 - 18, Business Meetings 19 - 23 September Baltimore (will be in person!).  2022-08-23 Terminology Track to include Gender Harmony.  PJ doing "Ask the Expert" with a focus on testing.  Interest expressed in Snowstorm (see https://github.com/IHTSDO/snowstorm/releases/tag/8.0.0-beta).  Use cases for mixing code systems in ValueSets.  2022-06-09 ML CSIRO Planning to have an R5 Ontoserver available for use at this event.

Kai Kewley 

Kai Kewley 

Kai Kewley 

Going forward:  suggestion that PJ and RH expose both the MRCM and the capabilities of ECL 2.0 with the wider HL7 and FHIR Communities.  See slides on ECL 2.0 here.  ML more generally this is a refinement axis which is represented as two things - the attribute and the range of values that that attribute can take.

• Peter G. Williams make a note of this in the IG

Kai Kewley

Peter Jordan

Rob Hausam

https://jira.hl7.org/browse/FHIR-29821 "Updated cardinality of designation.use"

Expected to be part of R5.

RH - can we look at combining this with the Designation Context of Use Extension?

2022-02-22  Add HL7 Jira ticket about designation use context and designation.additionalUse. For discussion on HL7 Vocab call March 3.

2022-03-08 See also https://jira.hl7.org/browse/FHIR-36231 "Add designation context to designation.additionalUse"

Feedback from this group:   relying on the order of elements in the additionalUse array could be tightened up.   If a new element is being proposed, perhaps we could add some structure/hierarchy so that the relationship between refset and acceptability could be more explicit.

From ticket "After discussion, it is concluded that the vast majority of use cases would be supported by use of BCP 47 extension mechanism and existing (R5) designation.use ValueSet, at the cost of some duplication of designations when they exist in multiple contexts." so Rob Hausamwe can close FHIR-36231

2022-04-19 DK See Use of BCP-47 + designation.use as a possible way forward.   New values of "consumer" and "preferred-for-language" in the process of being added to http://build.fhir.org/valueset-designation-use.html see https://jira.hl7.org/browse/FHIR-19960  (may also be relevant: https://build.fhir.org/ig/HL7/UTG/CodeSystem-hl7TermMaintInfra.html )   https://jira.hl7.org/browse/UP-107 is marked as "waiting for input", but we may have moved passed it since Feb 2021.   https://jira.hl7.org/browse/FHIR-14302 points to UP-107.   Muddying the water is https://terminology.hl7.org/CodeSystem-designation-usage.html

Note that NL is keen to make more use of Text Definitions which would be an obvious candidate to add to the designation use.   There is already a "definition" element for CodeSystem.concept but there's only 0..1 of those.

ML suggests use the definition code as the use type.  "Display and preferredForLanguage are synonymous"

DK A metadata item that a server could declare is what default language reference set it might be using.

2022-05-03 PJ/RH  "GG keen to review use cases"

DK Discussion with SI Translation group revealed need for more clarity around our terms - patient friendly, consumer, etc.   Requested comments on page. Meetings every 2 weeks.  PJ suggested "Layman's Term" - not well known outside of English and translations tend to take the religious interpretation (eg French "profane").   MAL: NL using "client" or "customer". DK allegedly LOINC using specific terms for GP use, rather than lab technicians.

Could we offer Use of BCP-47 + designation.use for review by the HL7 Vocab Group Rob Hausam? Targeting 9 - 13 meetings.

Kai Kewley

2022-02-22:  Presentation: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Kz-8N6UQsGZ8C1xsC8TZT6LEbeyr6elrgMt2FI-whjU

• Supplements might not be able to hold new concepts: https://www.hl7.org/fhir/codesystem.html#supplements bullet no 4.
• (Ontoserver seems to do this: https://ontoserver.csiro.au/docs/6/postcoordination.html#Expression_Libraries )

Proposal might include using side-effects which some might be sensitive to.

Runtime maintenance is required. Is it possible to reuse the existing API in order to standardize the approach?

A Code System Supplement may be used to hold a set of postcoordinated expressions as FHIR concepts

• This approach used by Ontoserver so that they are "known" to the Terminology Server so that $expand can be used without considering all possible PCEs.  Not that some clients may not be able to process PCEs so the CS Supplement allows these to be kept separate.  Michael Lawley will raise ticket to "Add parameter to ValueSet $expand to specify Code System Supplements to be included" (would need to be compatible with code system that the ValueSet is being expanded against)
• "No requirement for a designation"

CodeSystem/$validate-code operation could be used to validate the expression

• Yes (doesn't need previous knowledge of the PCE, similarly for $lookup

Could calling CodeSystem/$lookup automatically create expression concepts in the supplement, to be returned in ECL queries for analytics? Or use PATCH?

• Probably not, see use of Supplement above.   Yes use of PATCH seems reasonable (PUT a whole new version more common, but PATCH might allow for finer grained updates ie not having to re-submit the entire cohort of expressions).   ML: Custom operation might be useful here to add to the codeSystem and update the ConceptMap in one go.

ConceptMap/$translate could translate an expression to a single identifier to support more limited clinical record systems.  Could this work in real time, automatically creating entries as required?

• ML: Use a local CodeSystem for the expression identifiers and a concept map to link them together.

• Peter G. WilliamsAdd to PCE page in IG

2022-05-17 KK Were tickets raised around clarifying questions?   2022-05-31 ML Taking an action to raise a ticket for expand so that you can specify one or more CodeSystem Supplements to be used in that expansion. "Expressions already exist as concepts in the given CodeSystem implicitly, Therefore they can be used in a CodeSystem Supplement.   The rules for CodeSystem Supplements state that they can only be used with Concepts that already exist in the CodeSystem"  "An expression is not adding a concept to a CodeSystem, it is just expressing something that is already there"

See https://jira.hl7.org/browse/FHIR-37529

2022-06-28 KK would like an agenda item added to next meeting (1 month time) to discuss a couple of strawmen proposals.

2022-07-26 KK walking through the postcoordination workflow (link above).

CodeSystem supplement for expression library, ConceptMap to map between expressions and fixed-length generated identifiers. ConceptMaps need explicit ValueSets for source (expressions) and target (generated ids).

What should be the system of the generated identifiers, should these identifiers be SCTID(-like)? ML: Would use UUIDs rather than SCTIDs.

A POST on $expand would allow composing a value set with the dependent SNOMED CT edition and the post-coordination supplement and the be filtered with any relevant ECL (for example).

RH: we're not creating new concepts (new meaning) but rather a new identifier from something that is already SNOMED defined meaning.

Having the generated id as a property on the concepts in the supplement would allow:

• the alternate id would be returned for any $expand operation including the supplement, possibly filtered by ECL
• an expand on a ValueSet composed of the supplement and supplemented CodeSystem filtered by the alternate id property would return the expression.

Alternatively, an additional CodeSystem for the generated ids could be created where the expression could be provided as properties.

2022-08-23 We'll pick this up when Linda Bird is next available for a Wednesday 10:00UTC call.

2022-09-06 KL worked through SNOMED CT Postcoordination Workflow (Discussion)

ML Would a refset of PCEs represent a Code System Supplement?

Rob Hausam

Discussion about proposed federation.  ML Doesn't work so well with SNOMED CT because there's not a single authoritative source due to country extensions (and multiple versions being released).  Use case for this is mainly in creation of IGs.  Agreement that what a conformant server should be able to state in Capability Statement is helpful.   ML Touchstone test script artefacts need investment.  See https://touchstone.aegis.net/touchstone/

See also https://inferno.healthit.gov/

16 Nov Update RH: Updates in for next ballot (not January now).

8 Feb RH: Next ballot confirmed May (deadline March 6, since extended 2 - 3 months)

8 March RH Community being polled on preferred approach to next release from three options: 1. R5 Release with additional Normative content (ie in 2023) 2. Hold R5 3. New content, but not new normative content (looking most popular option).   See https://onfhir.hl7.org/2022/02/28/soliciting-feedback-concerning-the-roadmap-for-fhir-r5/

22 March 2022 RH Expecting September Ballot (hoping for sooner, prior to the working group meeting? - RH)

2022-05-17 RH Ballot expected later. Content freeze Aug 21

2022-8-23 RH R5 Deadline now September 4  

• Rob Hausam please create relevant tracker to take forward the additions marked green in this page:  Changes for R5

Peter Jordan

Daniel Karlsson

Jeremy Rogers

Collecting topics for TB stream here, with a view to having a call when there's sufficient material

FamilyMemberHistory - how is "no family history of X" best represented?

FreshDesk ticket question on Allergy substance cross field validation.  DK: Mappings to other information models, is that helpful?

Oct 5 2021 Request for input from nutrition CRG.

8 Feb 2022 MAL Patient Care group proposing the use of an extension (specified by Daniel) to represent Allergy Type to add non-allergic hypersensitivity.  MAL wondered about allowing a Codeable Concept there rather than a Code to allow for greater expressivity.   Resource not planning on being Norminative in R5.

Michael Lawley

Licensing issues for IGs referring to SNOMED codes. Is this written down anywhere with some sort of rigour?

Consider the licence statement that is presented when accessing the browser. Should something similar be mandated for inclusion in any document published? What if a patient's medical record were to be published?

• Peter G. Williams find clarity here - email discussion started with Suzy Royand Jane Millar

Update 12 Jan - "One Page Policy" to be discussed internally.   HL7 agreement indicates other parties would require affiliate licence unless they restricted their usage to the Global Patient Set.

26 Jan Question from PJ about inclusion of COVID Vaccine concepts in the GPS (advised that it is only released yearly)  FYI Rory Davidson See also MF discussion here.  SuzyR will follow up.  See also early preview page.

Mechanisms for working with Languages

Designation extension

24 August DK Added pull request to Snowstorm  here

Implementation by ML using existing fields and specifying LangRefset in displayLanguage parameter with "preferredForLanguage" code and wildcard  Eg https://r4.ontoserver.csiro.au/fhir/ValueSet/$expand?displayLanguage=*-x-sctlang-20581000-087109&_format=json&url=http://snomed.info/sct/20611000087101?fhir_vs=ecl/160303001&includeDesignations=true

Oct 5 Release of Ontoserver 6.5.0 which includes support for language reference sets as above.

• Peter G. Williamsdocument examples using live Snowstorm instance

Next Steps:   How to promote - could we present at a Vocab call?   (1530 ET Thursdays - may clash with SI Languages call)

8 Feb 2022 DK  added Designation Extension into the SNOMED on FHIR IG see http://build.fhir.org/ig/IHTSDO/snomed-ig/StructureDefinition-designation-use-context.html

Peter G. Williams

Implementation Guide for using SNOMED CT with FHIR.

IG Documentation: http://build.fhir.org/ig/FHIR/ig-guidance/index.html

Also look at the sample IG https://github.com/fhir/sample-ig see build http://build.fhir.org/ig/FHIR/sample-ig/

• Rob Hausam to speak to Lloyd about extending the base template as per http://build.fhir.org/ig/FHIR/ig-guidance/template.html Update 24 March: Documentation on this is "TODO"
• Peter G. Williams FHIR core content to be copied over to Snowstorm instance.

TODOS 

• Check build issues http://build.fhir.org/ig/IHTSDO/snomed-ig/qa.html    Update 2022-06-20 Tooling currently giving a null pointer, see https://build.fhir.org/ig/IHTSDO/snomed-ig/failure/build.log  asked question in Zulip  See https://chat.fhir.org/#narrow/stream/179252-IG-creation/topic/Null.20pointer.20in.20ValueSetRenderer   
• Note page to manually execute build through HL7 Tooling: https://fhir.github.io/auto-ig-builder/builds.html
• Rerun locally with latest tooling (also sushi)
• Run with local snowstorm provided as Tx
• See Mark Kramer presentation   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmcSuAMf20s  Also https://fshschool.org/ 
• CONTENT! 
• Merge in DUC branch (Designation Use Context) with a view to implementing in a branch of Snowstorm and making available via connectathon.ihtsdotools.org
• Clean up other branches
• Check templates are up to date - should now be self updating, see https://github.com/FHIR/sample-ig (fsh may ask to update this structure).   Sushi sending out information about new format (PJ says leading whitespace is now significant).
• ReadMe should provide links for Publisher tooling
• Add discussion on Refset / IN (see above)
• Provide link to it in http://build.fhir.org/snomedct.html and discuss further socializing.
• TerminologyCapabilities caching is overly aggressive.
• Added 2022-08-23 Discuss ownership, hosting and copyright (joint copyright with HL7).  Source will be hosted in GitHub, pull requests will be welcome with this group acting as gatekeepers (reviewers) for that?   Suzy Roy would the wording of our original collaboration be helpful here?

Discussion on * version wildcard. (relates to a Zulip discussion on expanding a ValueSet against multiple editions to give a superset?)  DK How could we specify the latest version of multiple modules.   Answer http://snomed.info/sct/*   (ie not specifying the version) or http://snomed.info/sct/*/version/*  to include concepts from previous versions.

For use in the module / version URI.   Existing workaround is to use multiple include elements for each version.

7 Sept ML Sticking point - what do we do with incompatible properties eg active/inactive between two different versions - the most recent?

Use case: primarily being able to validate codes that might exist in different editions.   Secondarily, being able to validate code received in a historical record ie where codes were valid at time of data entry.

25 Jan 2022: Snowstorm will already look across all Editions loaded when a codesystem version is not specified, eg:  https://browser.ihtsdotools.org/fhir/CodeSystem/$validate-code?coding=http://snomed.info/sct|443971000124108 only exists in the US Edition.  (See also the History proposals for ECL)

• Peter G. Williamsdocument Snowstorm multi-edition validation in IG

2022-05-17 ML Ontoserver supports ValueSets that draw from more than one version, so you could use that to compute the difference between one version and another.

Rob Hausam (primarily Vocab WG)

Suzy Roy

Alejandro Lopez Osornio

Quick Questions:  

Next time:  Need some way of identifying which language reference sets are "patient friendly" aka "consumer"  (eg make those specific reference sets have an additional parent that indicates their use CS "Explanatory Terms".   Alternative solutions: annotations/metadata )    2022-05-17 MAL Daniel presented at translation User Group - looking for definition of "what is a patient friendly / consumer.  See here. ) 2022-08-23 PWI If we go forward with annotations, would a flag for "consumer" be one of those values?  Alternatively (or additionally) do we want a common ancestor for these refsets.  To add to agenda for the Joint AG session on the Wednesday PM September Business Meetings.

Peter Jordan

Michael Lawley

Impact of proposed changes (eg text searching in ECL) on FHIR. Questions around which language reference sets to use when there are multiple, especially partial/overriding context (referred to MAG for discussion)

8 Sept The FHIR specification does not specify a particular version of ECL, so we assume the latest.  Any enhancements added to ECL will be immediately relevant and available in FHIR.   Note that these latest additions while targeting descriptions are a concept filter, so display options (language etc) will affect the output of those concepts.   How about the filter parameter though, especially since ECL wo (ld allow multiple filters in multiple/different languages.

• Michael Lawley Suggested ticket: Parent and Child properties to (optionally?) support the Coding type.

Daniel Karlsson

Peter G. Williams

API for FHIR Resource to SNOMED Expression

• Daniel Karlsson Thought there might be some documentation from CIMI on this. Also notes from DMarkwell about constructor bindings.
• Peter G. Williams Pull these notes into confluence - can we mention it in the IG?

Peter G. Williams

Problems when dependencies do not align. Multiple code system resources represent multiple editions / versions.

ML: See code parameter to code system search. Should return code systems (ie versions) where that code is defined. International concepts would appear in every edition known to the server.

eg /CodeSystem?system=htp://snomed.info/sct&code=12345678&_elements=version

• Peter G. Williams Ticket implementing this lookup. Note that this could be implemented more generally for lookups of http://snomed.info/id/<SCTID> where the SCTID exists in an extension. Done - see STORM-262.

Peter G. Williams

CodeSystem "class vs instance" in url parameter between CodeSystem and ValueSet operations.

CodeSystem is understood.

In Valueset, url is the ValueSet url for example url = http://snomed.info/sct?fhir_vs= allows for the version URI to be used as stated in https://build.fhir.org/snomedct.html The base URL is either http://snomed.info/sct , or the URI for the edition version, in the format specified by SNOMED International in the SNOMED CT URI Specification.

The ValueSet version valueSetVersion is just some string identifier eg a timestamp or 0.1.0

Rob Hausam

What properties are returned?

Discussion: Both Ontoserver and Snowstorm are returning EffectiveTime which is not listed here (unlike other SNOMED specifics): https://build.fhir.org/snomedct.html

• Peter Jordan to raise a Jira ticket to ask for this to be returned - completed https://jira.hl7.org/browse/FHIR-26555

Point of interest: Grahame's server returns a copyright property.

Update 7 April - Question about whether this is required / desirable?

Michael Lawley

Terminology Capabilities: Default SNOMED Edition for a Server. Suggestion to invite Graham for a wider discussion. Resource is still at maturity 0.

11 August The resource is based on instances of code systems. Difficult to make statements about code systems generally, or specific SNOMED editions, etc. Will start a Zulip discussion on this. Michael Lawley Then potentially invite Grahame for a future discussion?

25 August It has been agreed that this resource will now have maturity level 1

See https://chat.fhir.org/#narrow/stream/179202-terminology/topic/tx.2Efhir.2Eorg.20New.20parameters.20for.20.24expand.20.26.20.24validate-code

8 Sept 20 Is there a Jira ticket ?   Rob says Grahame implemented this.

12 Jan:  RH update made to GG Server.   Documentation (assuming required) still outstanding.

Michael Lawley

Use case for fall back lookup when server does not know the answer to any particular question eg a façade server which has knowledge of all services it could potentially delegate to.

Aug 25: New capabilities in HAPI to allow delegation to an external terminology server.