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Date

2018-08-20 20.00 UTC

Objectives

  1. Discuss representation of diagnostic products (to be used as values for susceptibility observables)
  2. Bloodpressure request review
  3. Target observables request review

Discussion items


ItemDescriptionOwnerNotesAction
1Welcome & apologies
  • Remember recording!



2Conflicts of interest
  • None stated


3Previous minutes


4Susceptibility
  • Mapping of LOINC component for Susceptibility LOINC terms

  • There will likely be a new "diagnostic product" hierarchy parallel to the medicinal product hierarchy, reusing attributes and patterns from that hierarchy. The priority of this work is currently unknown
    • The new category would need modeling guidance (cf. Clinical Drug (CD) Concept - Pattern 1a, permission needed!). Some of the items that should be considered are as follows (from Farzaneh and Toni):
    • Do we need a new semantic tag?

    • Can the concepts be modelled with a single pattern/template or are there multiple patterns/templates needed?

    • Can we reuse of some of attributes in medicinal product and CDs? Do we need to create new ones?

    • Does the hierarchy require groupers?

    • Do any concepts have strength ranges?

    • If a concept specifies more than one substance, does each substance have an associated strength?

    • See this page for discussion: Diagnostic products

    • Draft editorial guidelines: Editorial Guidelines for Diagnostic Products Used for Susceptibility Testing

  • Daniel Karlsson to update the editorial guidelines for "diagnostic substance products" based on the discussion report back at next meeting

5Diastolic arterial pressure 

"Diastolic arterial pressure - please can you review current content regarding diastolic arterial pressure and add a new concept for Diastolic arterial pressure. There is a concept that is inactive. This would match 72313002|Systolic arterial pressure (observable entity)|, and thus provide the required Observable targets for all GP composite BP readings.

There are currently two observable entity concepts for the recording of 271649006 | Systolic blood pressure (observable entity) and 72313002 | Systolic arterial pressure (observable entity) but the diastolic observable entity concept (271650006 | Diastolic blood pressure (observable entity)) has the synonym of 2620223019 | Diastolic arterial pressure. Please can you review this concept and add a new concept for Diastolic arterial pressure? 

Primary care composite BP readings (of which there are a few billion to be migrated...) are generally recorded against two READ2/CTV3 codes, one for the systolic and one for the diastolic element. These need mapping to SCT observables. The 'obvious' targets of 271649006|Systolic blood pressure (observable entity)| and 271650006|Diastolic blood pressure (observable entity)| are IMHO in fact inappropriate because they're groupers: they subsume, for example, the notions of target BP. This is potentially a problem in querying contexts; I'd rather move the 'random' BP readings further down the taxonomy. A suitable concept already exists under 271649006|Systolic blood pressure (observable entity)|, but the proposed solution requires the other half instating under 271650006|Diastolic blood pressure (observable entity)|.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S2358-04292017000600005 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18469640"

I reviewed the Vital signs I/E document again ( https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/x/bJW2AQ) and didn’t find this specifically addressed except the mention of the above description. Some questions I have:

  • Do we need a concept which is “Systolic arterial blood pressure at single point in time?” or “Random systolic arterial blood pressure?” (and equivalent diastolic arterial pressure)?
  • Do we need to reactivate 67726005 |Diastolic arterial pressure (observable entity)|?
  • Do we need to remove description “SAP - Systolic arterial pressure” from 271649006 |Systolic blood pressure (observable entity)|?
  • What is intended relationship and difference between 271649006 |Systolic blood pressure (observable entity)| and 72313002 |Systolic arterial pressure (observable entity)|? Currently they are supertype-subtype.
  • Suzanne Santamaria Get back to requesters about preference (submitted question on 20 August following call)
  • Sarah Harry Ask UK for use statistics for the BP observables

6Target observables

...two member countries (US and UK) have requested a series of target observables in the past (2011?). The request was "hidden" in a JIRA ticket rather than both being in CRS so they have not been on our radar. There is a chance they could be added to SNOMED CT if: 1) SI and the US agree to add the content; 2) the precoordination pattern was unblocked (PCP-5 artf223120-Target range/value for <X> (observable entity) is an “unreviewed” and blocking pre-coordination pattern, but could be reviewed shortly). Before I proceed in inquiring about the above, we wanted to seek modeling advice for these type of concepts. Could they be modeled or would they need to be primitives at this point in time?

Previous discussions: 2016-10-24--26 - OBSERVABLE Meeting


7Next meeting
  • Next meeting is on on 2018-09-17
  • Face-to-face meeting agenda
  • As the LOINC project is on hold, we will shift to monthly Observables calls

8AOB


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2 Comments

  1. In case it helps inform further consideration of Item 5 (Observables for various flavours of 'snapshot' systolic and diastolic BP readings...), here is a cumulative report of how often, in a UK Primary Care setting and over the last six years, each of the various 'BP Observation' related codes was entered as a new EPR item. Or, more accurately, how often some code in some terminology was entered but for the same basic underlying clinical idea as the SNOMED codes quoted here, since none of this data was captured using SNOMED codes natively - my particular task is to work out how to migrate this historically captured data across to SNOMED, hence the recommendation to the IE that it consider the discrepancy between the set of codes for systolic vs diastolic BP.

    In essence, the vast majority of the recording (70% of 1 billion data points) was recorded as a pair of data items, coded as one diastolic plus one systolic BP reading observation, and at a rate equivalent to one composite BP observable per citizen per year. It isn't necessarily the case that all these are true 'in clinic' random BP measurements; given current good clinical practice of now preferring to monitor BP via an average of serial (preferably ambulatory) readings over random clinic readings, there ought to be very many more uses of the codes for these average readings than there are, which causes me to suspect that many of the unspecified readings are actually averages.

    A further 27% is recoded using an 'its a BP' code, which we may imagine will have a less directly computable and graphable text entry such as '120/80 mmHg'  attached to it, or alternatively possibly sometimes a qualitative result like 'normal'.

    The remainder - 1.5% of the total volume but still 16M data items - are a variety of other ways of stating or recording actual, or occasionally target, BP. 

    SNOMED CT SNOMED TERM TOTAL 
    1091811000000102 Diastolic arterial pressure  371,506,330  (observable entity)
    72313002 Systolic arterial pressure  371,500,780  (observable entity)
    163020007 O/E - blood pressure reading  290,944,800  (finding)
    24184005 Raised blood pressure reading  2,463,660  (finding)
    413606001 Average home systolic blood pressure  1,089,750  (observable entity)
    413605002 Average home diastolic blood pressure  1,072,710  (observable entity)
    75367002 Blood pressure  1,061,230  (observable entity)
    407554009 Sitting systolic blood pressure  1,033,910  (observable entity)
    407555005 Sitting diastolic blood pressure  1,024,250  (observable entity)
    163025002 O/E - BP reading normal  837,370  (finding)
    400974009 Standing systolic blood pressure  775,530  (observable entity)
    400975005 Standing diastolic blood pressure  753,840  (observable entity)
    314463006 24 hour blood pressure  443,890  (observable entity)
    163035008 Sitting blood pressure reading  436,130  (observable entity)
    314449000 Average 24 hour systolic blood pressure  412,220  (observable entity)
    314462001 Average 24 hour diastolic blood pressure  408,110  (observable entity)
    163034007 Standing blood pressure reading  374,540  (observable entity)
    163027005 O/E - BP reading raised  353,960  (finding)
    315613000 Target diastolic blood pressure  336,220  (observable entity)
    335661000000109 Self measured blood pressure reading  309,290  (observable entity)
    315612005 Target systolic blood pressure  281,290  (observable entity)
    2004005 Normal blood pressure  268,880  (finding)
    314461008 Average day interval diastolic blood pressure  265,850  (observable entity)
    314446007 Average day interval systolic blood pressure  264,340  (observable entity)
    198081000000101 Ambulatory systolic blood pressure  209,070  (observable entity)
    198091000000104 Ambulatory diastolic blood pressure  205,000  (observable entity)
    163026001 O/E - BP borderline raised  198,840  (finding)
    314445006 Average night interval systolic blood pressure  156,270  (observable entity)
    314956000 Borderline blood pressure  156,190  (finding)
    314460009 Average night interval diastolic blood pressure  156,120  (observable entity)
    313005002 O/E - BP reading: no postural drop  125,240  (situation)
    407556006 Lying systolic blood pressure  94,350  (observable entity)
    407557002 Lying diastolic blood pressure  92,250  (observable entity)
    163033001 Lying blood pressure reading  55,100  (observable entity)
    170582005 O/E - check high BP  39,880  (finding)
    271649006 Systolic blood pressure  38,280  (observable entity)
    163032006 O/E - BP stable  37,240  (finding)
    271650006 Diastolic blood pressure  33,850  (observable entity)
    271870002 Low blood pressure reading  30,290  (disorder)
    163029008 O/E - BP reading:postural drop  28,890  (finding)
    502541000000105 [D]Blood pressure raised, hypertension not diagnosed  27,270  (context-dependent category)
    314440001 Average systolic blood pressure  22,100  (observable entity)
    314453003 Average diastolic blood pressure  21,360  (observable entity)
    163023009 O/E - BP reading low  14,330  (disorder)
    271648003 Postural drop in blood pressure  13,700  (finding)
    163028000 O/E - BP reading very high  11,380  (finding)
    314464000 24 hour systolic blood pressure  10,070  (observable entity)
    163024003 O/E - BP borderline low  9,320  (disorder)
    170581003 O/E - initial high BP  9,150  (finding)
    45007003 Low blood pressure  9,020  (disorder)
    928021000000108 Baseline blood pressure  8,340  (observable entity)
    314465004 24 hour diastolic blood pressure  8,190  (observable entity)
    170573004 Pre-treatment BP reading  7,910  (regime/therapy)
    271871003 BP reading labile  6,830  (finding)
    271651005 Stable blood pressure  6,080  (finding)
    6797001 Mean blood pressure  5,300  (observable entity)
    163036009 O/E - blood pressure decreased  4,510  (finding)
    163021006 O/E - BP unrecordable  2,780  (finding)
    163037000 O/E - BP labile  2,600  (finding)
    251080003 Labile blood pressure  2,250  (finding)
    314448008 Maximum 24 hour systolic blood pressure  2,100  (observable entity)
    314459004 Maximum 24 hour diastolic blood pressure  2,060  (observable entity)
    716579001 Baseline systolic blood pressure  1,800  (observable entity)
    271645000 Blood pressure unrecordable  1,740  (finding)
    716632005 Baseline diastolic blood pressure  1,700  (observable entity)
    163022004 O/E - BP reading very low  1,040  (disorder)
    314447003 Minimum 24 hour systolic blood pressure  920  (observable entity)
    314456006 Minimum 24 hour diastolic blood pressure  920  (observable entity)
    314439003 Maximum systolic blood pressure  680  (observable entity)
    314443004 Maximum night interval systolic blood pressure  670  (observable entity)
    314457002 Maximum night interval diastolic blood pressure  670  (observable entity)
    38936003 [D]Blood pressure abnormal, not diagnostic NOS  600  (finding)
    314452008 Maximum diastolic blood pressure  600  (observable entity)
    314438006 Minimum systolic blood pressure  290  (observable entity)
    314451001 Minimum diastolic blood pressure  290  (observable entity)


  2. Per my action item associated with agenda item 5 above, the requester responded:

    "Thank you for your query. I've discussed the above with Jeremy Rogers so considering your options for future requirements the following would be beneficial:

    • Random systolic arterial blood pressure
    • Random diastolic arterial blood pressure

    But to manage current and historical data it would be beneficial to be able to record ‘Diastolic arterial pressure’ as it may not be known if this is random or an average reading.

    This would enable the ability to record Diastolic arterial pressure to complete the already available 72313002|Systolic arterial pressure (observable entity)| concept.

    The more generic concepts 271649006 | Systolic blood pressure (observable entity) and 271650006 | Diastolic blood pressure (observable entity) suggested don’t specify arterial pressure therefore may have been used to record venous pressure, impacting the data recorded and how this is retrievable in the record?"

    CC: Farzaneh AshrafiDaniel KarlssonJeremy Rogers