- Created by Nashar Karim, last modified on 2025-Aug-06
6th August 2025
GoToMeeting Details
Zoom link - https://snomed.zoom.us/my/pathologycrg
Apologies
Recording (Cloud)
Discussion items
Item | Description | Owner | Notes | Action |
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1 | Inheres_in ratios, fractions, mass content | Question from UK NRC to the NPU to SNOMED CT translation project: Should Inheres_in be to substance or body structure for anatomy? Daniel - not in our Top 100 list, but we do have body structures though, as cell structures (leukocytes etc.) are body structures. We would I guess only use a specimen value of inheres in if the observable was specifically about the specimen (e.g. specimen volume). I would assume that the first one would inhere in the liver, for the second one there is both 395508003 |Hair - material (substance)| and 386045008 |Hair structure (body structure)| to consider. 119326000 |Hair specimen (specimen)| is defined by the body structure. A (patient) system is an “arbitrarily defined part of the universe” and the domain of “Inheres in” is any material entity (substance, organism, body structure, physical object, … in SNOMED CT) so the two are aligned (by design). the hair acts as a physical memory and integrator of mercury exposure https://www.annclinlabsci.org/content/36/3/248.full The current NPU concept: NPU02700, Hair—Mercury; subst.cont. = ? µmol/kg does not capture that meaning. perhaps in the information model and not in the code. The FHIR resource currently does not support this though. Gunnar - The mercury content inheres in the hair follicles were the hair structure was created and at the time when the structure was created. This timepoint differ from the sampling time of the hair. This is utilized clinically; the mercury content of the hair might thus reflect the mercury challenge for the body one or more months prior to the sampling (depending on the hair cut + distance from scalp The sampling is probably standardized in some way – we have to ask the experts. And this standardization ought to be included in the code. Young Bae - Agree on the information is needed but in the common laboratory information model. Not in the description of the quantity. Jim Case - Body structure is used for inheres_in for NPU-SNOMED CT project This enables modelling location of hair from body structure hierarchy ALL - Hair length can be another observation in FHIR observation group i.e. one observation to represent mass content of mercury in hair; and another observation to represent length of hair with a codable concept e.g. 12704-3 Length of hair ------------------- NOTES Mass content is deprecated in the IUPAC green book Mass content and mass fraction are equivalent No change required to SNOMED CT properties NPU can map mass fraction to LOINC / SNOMED CT mass content Mass fraction - of components (e.g. haemoglobin types) Mass content - of the specimen (e.g. hair sample, calculus) NPU is in agreement with LOINC for mass ratios and relative concentrations (mass or molar) Do we expand ratios and relative concentrations in the terminology descriptions? e.g. Ratio of mass concentration of protein to substance concentration of creatinine in urine at point in time Ratio of mass concentration of creatinine to mass concentration of protein in urine at point in time | Recheck expansions of descriptions of mass/mass mol/mol ratios with lab experts | |
2 | Post-coordination in information model proposals | Review the session outputs Gunnar will come back to Karim to look at the Swedish model of microbiology post-coordination | ||
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Actions log
Item | Description | Owner | Notes | Action |
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1 | International decision for sharing and reusing path and lab SNOMED CT observable entity content | |||
2 | SARS-Cov2 observable entity concepts for reporting viral RNA presence in the SNOMED CT International Edition | FA | These concepts are modelled with both inheres_in and direct_site | Farzaneh to take these back and discuss internally for a steer on the use of inheres_in for these concepts On hold SI propose to remove inheres_in but await formal decision from this group |
3 | Use of inheres_in for colour, appearance, identification | FA | inheres_in used for the property to describe the characteristic of an organism, cell or body structure - applicable to LOINC Ontology representations | See Farazaneh's slides - 2025-04-08 - SI April Business Meeting Laboratory Terminology Standards WG - Room: Munch 2 - Laboratory reporting working group - SNOMED Confluence |
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Issues and decisions log
Item | Description | Owner | Notes | Decision |
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1 | Time aspect specification in description AND modelling | All | Concept is primitive if the description is more specific than the modelling. Concept logical definition must not be more specific than concept description LOINC uses time_aspect NPU is implied Definition - Time of specimen collection | Must be stated consistently in description AND modelling in accordance with SI editorial policy modelling single point in time explicitly to enable correct classification of content Time-specific concepts must not be subsumed by unmodelled soft default implicit 'single point in time' concepts UK NRC to discuss applying the same principle |
2 | Inheres_in for sample based diagnostic reporting | All | Inheres_in effectively duplicates direct_site. They are two different perspectives (lab and clinical) of the same target Direct_site is suitable for sample-based diagnostics and not other areas but NPU will not be following those guidlines In Cancer Synoptic histology - carcinoma inheres_in neoplasm, when specimen is taken, the direct_site is specimen LOINC and NPU share linkage via 3 attributes, as SNOMED CT concepts they will classify as siblings, because of the different use of Inheres_in and direct_site Can compute mapping using ECL Some challenges e.g. NPU uses units, LOINC does not | Direct_site attribute sufficiently captures specimen and derivable substance / site from specimen modelling LOINC Ontology to model direct_site NPU to model inheres_in Create interoperable rules and document in guidance LOINC and NPU take different approached (to be documented) UK NRC need to decide approach |
3 | Representation of percent | All | Concept is primitive if the description is more specific than the modelling. Concept logical definition must not be more specific than concept description unit not required field in LOINC so in SNOMED CT, if fully defined without unit, could generate logical equivalences | Represent percent in the description and the unit in SNOMED CT in accordance with SI editorial policy LOINC Committee decided to remove 100 denominator and reflect percent as UoM. LOINC Ontology will only release codes with 'fraction property (e.g number fraction, mass fraction)' and percent will be identified by unit. Percent unit is used with NPU. NPU is more standardised with use of units so there is less variation (e.g. for substance conc, one unit) International content will continue to model percent unit according to cancer synoptic content - any question mark for moving to LOINC Ontology? UK will maintain SNOMED CT percentage subtypes to support the UK labs migration from Read, modelling percent unit as standardised exceptions, but align to LOINC Ontology properties in order to compute equivalences (when combined with unit %) and classify as subtypes if needed |
4 | Inconsistencies - International content for cancer synoptic reporting by immunohistochemistry 1255078008 | Percent of cell nuclei positive for proliferation marker protein Ki-67 in primary malignant neoplasm by immunohistochemistry (observable entity) | | All | Does not use percent unit in modelling e.g. 1 - modelling time_aspect -> single point in time but not stating this in the description In contrast to LOINC Ontology examples that do state 'at single point in time' in the description and model in the logic e.g.2 - use inheres_in whereas LOINC Ontology used direct_site | SI are adding percent unit to the content Awaiting formal decision on inheres_in from this group Awaiting formal decision on time_aspect from this group |
5 | Qualitative and semi-quantitative representation in SNOMED CT | KN | How do we represent both axes of ordinal AND qualitative / semi-q in SNOMED CT model? NPU descriptions in this link (not complete yet): https://labterminology.com/npu-concept-model/general-rules-on-result-type/... Hierarchies are inconsistent for qualifiers that represent the targets of scale_type defining attribute for observable entity concepts (see presentation slides) | Both are ordinal scales Both represented as presence in LOINC and international SNOMED CT Semi-q needs to be defined UK need to make a distinction between qualitative and semi-q in the terminology |
6 | Relative concentration of a substance in two different specimens Relative concentration two different measurement properties CALCULATIONS | KN / DK | How do we assess effort vs impact? The requirement to model them accurately for machine reasoning - auto-classifications; erroneous subsumptions Karim reviewed the modelling options with Daniel and presented to group | Young Bae recommended we look at IUPAC relative properties and ratios Patient test results calculations - consistent approach to reference external formulae, and not represent in SNOMED CT observable entity concept model (including ratios) |
7 | Fractions and ratios | After review of the resources, internal discussions and a review with the LOINC team, we've determined that "Ratio" and "Fraction" should be classified as sibling properties. IFCC-IUPAC Silverbook https://iupac.org/what-we-do/books/silverbook/ but also on the homepage: https://labterminology.com/list-of-kinds-of-property/ | Agreement to have sibling properties and not subtypes | |
Meeting Files
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Microsoft Powerpoint 97 Slideshow NHSE Pathology Mass properties 20250625 (1).pptm | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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PNG File Screenshot 2025-05-28 at 11.52.55 AM.png | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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PNG File Screenshot 2025-05-28 at 11.53.02 AM.png | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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PDF File 20250409_mio42_DMEA-Modelle-MiBi_en.pdf | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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Microsoft Powerpoint Presentation Pre and post for Karim April 30 2025.pptx | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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Microsoft Powerpoint Presentation SNOMED_CT_qualitative_vs_semi-q.pptx | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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PNG File image (1).png | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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PNG File image (2).png | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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PNG File image.png | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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Microsoft Powerpoint Presentation HIMSS 2025 Pre and Post Coordination v2.pptx | 2025-Aug-06 by Nashar Karim | |
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