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Date and time

2021-10-18 17.00 UTC

Objectives

Discuss and make progress on these issues:

  • Direct site
  • Lab and E2O
  • Future topics

Discussion items

See below.


ItemDescriptionOwnerNotesAction

1Welcome & apologies

Remember recording!




2Conflicts of interest

None stated




3Minutes from previous meetingDaniel Karlsson



4Direct site

Examples of use of Direct site in relation to Inheres in to be added to Editorial guide.

2021-08-16:

In general Direct site describes how the particular observation procedure determines the result of measurement. For sample-based (in vitro) observations, concepts from the Specimen hierarchy are used. For direct (in vivo) observations, Direct site would not be used in this way as there is no sample. This would however lead to that direct observation observables would subsume sample-based ones unless some other representation is used, e.g. Techinque = "Direct observation" or Direct site = <<442083009 | Anatomical or acquired body structure (body structure) | (which might not always be true though).

871557008 | Detection of ribonucleic acid of Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 in oropharyngeal swab (observable entity) | has the 704327008 |Direct site (attribute)| of 461911000124106 | Swab specimen from oropharynx (specimen) |.

871557008 | Detection of ribonucleic acid of Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 in oropharyngeal swab (observable entity) | now has 704319004 |Inheres in (attribute)| = 31389004 |Oropharyngeal structure (body structure)|, which might not represent the meaning of the concept. The location of specimen taking is selected because of its representativeness of the patient as a whole but the infection is not limited to the oropharyngeal structure. Alternative values for Inheres in might be e.g. 278826002 | Body internal region (body structure) |, 20139000 | Structure of respiratory system (body structure) |, etc. Discussion to be continued at next meeting.

Added this discussion topic: Inheres in for SARS-CoV-2 tests and in general

2021-10-18:

The clear recommendation from the meeting was to keep the representation of | Inheres in | for the SARS-CoV-2 example and to not change the concept to have broader implications.




5ThresholdSarah Harry

Cycle threshold (Ct) values in nucleic acid amplification observables

Count of cycle reported as a number different from Threshold reported as +/-. Discussion whether 410681005 | Count of entities (property) (qualifier value) | could be used for counting cycles, i.e. are cycles entities? Representation comparable to e.g. 364075005 | Heart rate (observable entity) |, i.e. a process observable, but the details would have to be confirmed.

2021-10-18:

The actual count of cycles and the ordinal scale result using this technique would require two distinct concepts for representation. 410681005 | Count of entities (property) (qualifier value) | would be used as the property for the actual count of cycles.




6E2O

A number of topics have been identified in the E2O project for discussion in the Observables PG (see presentation here):

  • Observables and aggregation - how to represent average, mean, maximum etc. Previously, for the vital signs Observables, aggregation have been represented using primitive stated parents. What subsumption is expected? Examples: "Mean corpuscular volume", 314449000 | Average 24 hour systolic blood pressure (observable entity) |, 8879006 | Creatinine measurement, 24 hour urine (procedure) |
  • Precondition time spans, for example 313719006 | 120 minute plasma cortisol measurement (procedure) | - to model or not to model
    • When there are established, international protocols for measurement and the number of variations is relatively small, scalability might be an issue.
    • Representation within SNOMED CT would not be computable beyond identifying distinct time intervals.
    • Present examples for real-world use for next meeting.
  • What are the properties:
    • 413064004 | Anti mitochondrial antibody pattern (procedure) |
    • 413066002 | Antinuclear factor titer (procedure) |
    • 51106007 | Leukocyte alkaline phosphatase score (procedure) |

2021-10-18:

For discussion:

  • Groupers for lab observables
    • Presentation of proposal for grouper concepts to organize hierarchy based on Nebraska Lexicon and X-eHealth survey of EU lab specialties.
    • Some skepticism towards the introduction of primitive intermediates in the Observable hierarchy. Likely difficult-impossible to standardize internationally
    • Provide examples of what can and cannot be achieved with fully defined groupers, particularly using GCIs.
    • Is solutions to this problem better left to the IT-system vendors?
  • Results for Evaluation Procedures - E2O differential
    • Results attached here.
  • Other topics
    • Panels - when is the E2O project to provide guidance for panels. There is a need to collect the yet unsolved issues.



7Scale Observables

X

  • Scale/score Observables for anesthesia and clinical medicine
  • The Anesthesia CRG has submitted a paper to the EAG describing some of the problems of SNOMED in relation to modeling of assessment scales (see Modelling of Assessment Scales in SNOMED CT.docx)
  • See attached presentation for discussion this date: "Clinical Scale Scores20210301"
  • Deliverables: 

    1) Anesthesia CRG will proceed with proposing FSN/PT for ASA scale scores as qualifier, including definitions of each value, and proceed with obtaining permission from ASA for publication

  • 2) Anesthesia CRG will proceed with proposing FSN/PT for Mallampati scale scores as qualifiers, including definitions of each value, and proceed with obtaining permission from authoritative source for publication

  • More complicated use case of Glasgow Coma Scale was discussed briefly to prepare for detailed discussion next meeting.

  • Deliverable:  3) Meeting attendees to consider special use case of supporting calculations for Glasgow Coma Scale Total Score from three Ordinal component scores for discussion next meeting

2021-04-19:

Assessment scale hierarchy requirements https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1b_vmIY7IFjfYuaXd6H-c5GxijEyaFj75wbvreZ4_fkA/edit?usp=sharing

Andrew Norton provided background to the use cases provided by the Anesthesia CRG.

A requirement to represent the scale points of the assessment scales when they correspond to findings, but question is who is responsible for the association between clinical findings in general and scale points. 

There are two use cases which are slightly different: (1) the requirement to be able to use SNOMED CT to encode contents of the EHR and then use that to "populate" assessment scale components, and (2) the requirement to be able to store and communicate results of application of the assessment scales per se using SNOMED CT concepts. Moving from (1) (i.e. a SNOMED CT encoded EHR) to (2) (SNOMED CT encoded assessment scale representation) is non-trivial. There is a discrepancy between the recording of clinical findings (more granular) and the recording of values for assessment instruments (discrete buckets). The challenge is matching the clinical findings to the appropriate value in the assessment. This is not (necessarily) something that is handled within SNOMED. However, assessment scales are also sometimes used as the primary documentation.

2021-05-17:

Some example existing scale observables were discussed in relation to the subsumption expected from any work done to define scale observables. E.g. the Apgar component observables are not subsumed by any observables related to heart rate, respiration, skin color etc. To contrast, pain score observables are subsumed by other pain observables. The group agreed that being able to group scale observables by what the scales assess is a desireable feature of any solution.

2021-06-21:

James R. Campbell made a presentation at the Anesthesia CRG call about representing assessment scale observables. A key missing piece is the representation of scale points (ordinals) beyond their scale value (e.g. 1, 2, 3, ... for GCS) to include the actual clinical meaning. For GCS, neurologists' input will be sought. Experimentation with the CRG include more complex scales will help produce a decision paper for the EAG.

2021-08-02:

Slides

Scale observables could, when they correspond to e.g. physiological or otherwise established observations, be represented as <base observable> : | Technique | = <the assessment scale>, | Scale type | = | Ordinal|. See example in slides.

IP issues might prohibit the representation of some assessment scale components: Proprietary Names and Works

2021-08-16:

There's been a meeting of the Clinical Reference Group leads about assessment scales and SNOMED CT. A more general discussion about the requirements for assessment scale content is planned for a new meeting September 8. Andrew Norton will present the work done in the Anesthesia CRG with Observables and Findings. Will discuss this presentation with James R. Campbell and Daniel Karlsson.

The preferred representation of scale values/points/ordinals was discussed. Currently some concepts for scale values for some assessment scales, or parts thereof, exist in SNOMED CT, e.g. <<386557006 | Glasgow coma scale finding (finding) | but only for the total score, not its components. 

2021-10-18:

Waiting for input from CRGs.



8Future Observables topics

The OIMPG has been working since 2008 (in Birmingham) and since January 2017, the model has increasingly been implemented in the International SNOMED CT releases, still limited to certain domains.

 

Work has been done in different domains including vital signs, nutrition, cancer synoptic reports and given results of E2O project, laboratory medicine. Further needs have been identified for assessment scales, mental and behavioral health, as well as a number of yet undecided problems (e.g. risks, likelihoods, etc.). So, many of the problems are now within the different clinical domains rather than being about the peculiarities of the Observables model.

So where do we as a group (or any other stakeholders) want to see the project in the coming years, e.g.:

  • Needs for Observables discussions will grow as we tackle the other 92 % of the hierarchy
  • Project work is better managed in CRGs (with support)
  • These topics X, Y, Z needs to be resolved before any update on the status of the OIMPG



9Next meeting

Next meeting is Nov 18 20 UTC. An invite will be sent out.

Agenda:

  • E2O results and issues
  • Assessment scales (check with Anesthesia CRG)




Meeting Files

  File Modified
PNG File image2021-10-14_15-31-24.png 2021-Oct-14 by Daniel Karlsson
PNG File image2021-10-14_15-36-7.png 2021-Oct-14 by Daniel Karlsson
Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet e2o_procedures_diff_20211017.xlsx 2021-Oct-18 by Daniel Karlsson
Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet LabSpecialtyConvergenceProposal.xlsx 2021-Oct-18 by Daniel Karlsson
Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet E2O_PHASE1_FINAL_JRC_SH20211026.xlsx 2021-Oct-26 by James R. Campbell
File SNOMEDCT_LOINC_20210924.7z 2021-Oct-26 by James R. Campbell

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